Old Vines, New Arguments

Los fenicios ya traían vino a la Península Ibérica hace casi tres mil años.

The Phoenicians were already bringing wine to the Iberian Peninsula almost three thousand years ago.

Pero fueron los romanos quienes transformaron la viticultura en algo sistemático.

But it was the Romans who transformed viticulture into something systematic.

Plantaron viñas por toda Hispania, construyeron infraestructuras para exportar vino a Roma, y convirtieron a Hispania en uno de los mayores productores de vino del Imperio.

They planted vines throughout Hispania, built infrastructure to export wine to Rome, and turned Hispania into one of the largest wine producers in the Empire.

No es una exageración decir que los romanos pusieron los cimientos de la cultura vinícola española.

It's not an exaggeration to say that the Romans laid the foundations of Spanish wine culture.

Which makes the Moorish period genuinely fascinating, because here you have seven centuries of Islamic rule over much of the peninsula, a religion that prohibits alcohol, and yet the vineyards didn't disappear.

How does that work?

Es una paradoja hermosa.

It's a beautiful paradox.

Los musulmanes en Al-Ándalus toleraban la producción de vino para las comunidades cristianas y judías que vivían bajo su gobierno.

The Muslims in Al-Andalus tolerated wine production for the Christian and Jewish communities living under their rule.

Además, la uva también se usaba para hacer pasas y zumo, no solo vino.

Also, grapes were used to make raisins and juice, not only wine.

Y muchos historiadores señalan que algunos gobernantes andalusíes tenían una relación bastante...

And many historians point out that some Andalusian rulers had a quite...

flexible con la prohibición del alcohol.

flexible relationship with the prohibition of alcohol.

La historia raramente es tan simple como parece.

History is rarely as simple as it seems.

And the monasteries played a role too, didn't they?

I remember reading that during the Reconquista, as Christian kingdoms pushed south, the monasteries were the ones who kept the wine-making tradition alive and actually developed it.

Completamente.

Completely.

Los monjes necesitaban vino para la misa, claro, pero también descubrieron que producir y vender vino era una fuente de ingresos muy importante.

The monks needed wine for mass, of course, but they also discovered that producing and selling wine was a very important source of income.

Los monasterios de La Rioja, por ejemplo, tenían viñas extensas desde el siglo décimo.

The monasteries of La Rioja, for example, had extensive vineyards from the tenth century.

Fueron en muchos sentidos los primeros 'bodegas' formales de España, y experimentaron con técnicas que hoy siguen siendo la base de la viticultura moderna.

They were in many ways the first formal 'bodegas' of Spain, and they experimented with techniques that are still the basis of modern viticulture today.

Fast forward to the nineteenth century, and there's this catastrophe that reshapes wine production across the whole of Europe.

The phylloxera epidemic.

And Spain gets hit, but the story is actually more complicated than just destruction.

Muy complicada.

Very complicated.

Cuando la filoxera destruyó los viñedos franceses en la segunda mitad del siglo diecinueve, los productores franceses cruzaron los Pirineos y empezaron a comprar vino español, especialmente de La Rioja.

When phylloxera destroyed French vineyards in the second half of the nineteenth century, French producers crossed the Pyrenees and started buying Spanish wine, especially from La Rioja.

Fue una oportunidad enorme para los riojanos, que modernizaron sus bodegas con inversión francesa y aprendieron técnicas nuevas.

It was a huge opportunity for Riojans, who modernized their wineries with French investment and learned new techniques.

Luego llegó la filoxera a España también, y fue devastador, pero el periodo anterior había transformado la industria para siempre.

Then phylloxera arrived in Spain too, and it was devastating, but the earlier period had transformed the industry forever.

And this is where the Latin American thread enters, because the Spanish weren't just learning from the French at that moment.

They'd already exported wine culture to an entirely different continent, centuries earlier.

Correcto.

Correct.

Los conquistadores y los misioneros llevaron la vid a América Latina en el siglo dieciséis.

The conquistadors and missionaries brought the vine to Latin America in the sixteenth century.

Necesitaban vino para la misa, igual que los monjes medievales.

They needed wine for mass, just like the medieval monks.

Chile y Argentina fueron los primeros países en desarrollar una viticultura seria.

Chile and Argentina were the first countries to develop serious viticulture.

La uva 'País' en Chile y la 'Criolla' en Argentina son descendientes directas de aquellas cepas que llegaron con los españoles hace cinco siglos.

The 'País' grape in Chile and 'Criolla' in Argentina are direct descendants of those vines that arrived with the Spanish five centuries ago.

Now, Malbec.

Because when most people outside Argentina think about Argentine wine, that's the word they know.

But Malbec isn't originally Argentine, is it.

It's actually French.

Exactamente, y es una historia fascinante.

Exactly, and it's a fascinating story.

El Malbec viene originalmente del suroeste de Francia, de la región de Cahors.

Malbec originally comes from the southwest of France, from the Cahors region.

En Francia nunca fue una uva muy importante, bastante difícil de cultivar, susceptible a las heladas.

In France it was never a very important grape, quite difficult to grow, susceptible to frost.

Pero cuando llegó a Mendoza, en Argentina, algo ocurrió.

But when it arrived in Mendoza, in Argentina, something happened.

La altitud, el sol intenso, el clima seco...

The altitude, the intense sun, the dry climate...

el Malbec floreció de una manera que nunca había podido hacerlo en Europa.

Malbec flourished in a way it had never been able to in Europe.

Argentina tomó una uva secundaria y la convirtió en su símbolo nacional.

Argentina took a secondary grape and turned it into its national symbol.

Which is a genuinely interesting reversal.

The colony produces a better version of something the colonizer gave up on.

Chile did something similar, didn't it, with Carménère?

Idéntico.

Identical.

El Carménère era una uva bordelesa que desapareció de Francia después de la filoxera.

Carménère was a Bordeaux grape that disappeared from France after phylloxera.

Nadie la cultivaba.

Nobody grew it.

Pero en Chile seguía creciendo, y durante mucho tiempo los chilenos creían que era simplemente una variedad de Merlot.

But in Chile it kept growing, and for a long time Chileans believed it was simply a variety of Merlot.

No fue hasta los años noventa cuando un ampelógrafo francés identificó que lo que tenían era en realidad Carménère, una uva que en Europa se consideraba extinta.

It wasn't until the nineties that a French ampelographer identified what they had was actually Carménère, a grape considered extinct in Europe.

Chile conservó sin saberlo el patrimonio vinícola francés.

Chile had unknowingly preserved French wine heritage.

I want to push on something here, Octavio, because I know this is territory where you have opinions.

Argentine and Chilean wines have been winning major international competitions for thirty years now.

At some point, do you just...

concede that they're in the same conversation as the best Spanish wines?

Mira, te voy a ser honesto, aunque me cueste admitirlo.

Look, I'm going to be honest with you, even if it costs me to admit it.

Los mejores vinos de Argentina y Chile son extraordinarios.

The best wines from Argentina and Chile are extraordinary.

Un gran Malbec de Mendoza, un Cabernet Sauvignon del Valle del Maipo...

A great Malbec from Mendoza, a Cabernet Sauvignon from the Maipo Valley...

no tienen nada que envidiar a muchos vinos europeos.

they have nothing to envy many European wines.

La calidad es real.

The quality is real.

Lo que diría es que todavía les falta algo que los vinos europeos tienen: una historia de cientos de años que se expresa en el terruño, en la tradición, en el propio suelo.

What I would say is that they still lack something European wines have: a history of hundreds of years expressed in the terroir, in the tradition, in the very soil.

I'm marking the calendar.

Octavio Solana just said Argentine wine is extraordinary.

I want that on the record.

He dicho que los mejores son extraordinarios.

I said the best ones are extraordinary.

Eso no significa que cualquier botella de supermercado con un toro en la etiqueta sea comparable a un gran reserva riojano.

That doesn't mean any supermarket bottle with a bull on the label is comparable to a great Riojan gran reserva.

El nivel medio es otra conversación.

The average level is a different conversation.

Y a ver, el argumento del terruño no es nostalgia, Fletcher, es geología, es microclima, es siglos de conocimiento acumulado sobre qué cepa va bien en qué parcela.

And look, the terroir argument isn't nostalgia, Fletcher, it's geology, it's microclimate, it's centuries of accumulated knowledge about which grape does well in which plot.

Fair enough.

Let's talk about something I think is underappreciated in this whole story, which is the natural wine movement and how it's intersecting with traditional Spanish wine production.

Because there's real tension there.

Tensión es la palabra correcta.

Tension is the right word.

El movimiento del vino natural, que básicamente propone producir vino con la mínima intervención posible, sin sulfitos añadidos, sin levaduras comerciales, ha encontrado mucho apoyo entre productores jóvenes en España.

The natural wine movement, which basically proposes producing wine with minimum possible intervention, without added sulfites, without commercial yeasts, has found a lot of support among young producers in Spain.

Sobre todo en regiones como el Bierzo, en Galicia, o en Cataluña.

Especially in regions like El Bierzo, in Galicia, or in Catalonia.

Pero los productores tradicionales lo ven con sospecha, porque la intervención en la bodega no es necesariamente mala, es parte del arte.

But traditional producers view it with suspicion, because intervention in the winery isn't necessarily bad, it's part of the craft.

And there's a whole separate argument to be had about whether 'natural' wine actually tastes better, or whether it just sounds better as a concept to people who like their food politics visible on the label.

Hay vinos naturales que son maravillosos y hay vinos naturales que saben a vinagre de manzana.

There are natural wines that are wonderful and there are natural wines that taste like apple cider vinegar.

Como en todo, depende del productor.

As with everything, it depends on the producer.

Lo que me parece más interesante es que este debate está obligando a los productores tradicionales a articular por qué hacen las cosas como las hacen, a defender sus métodos con argumentos, no solo con tradición.

What I find most interesting is that this debate is forcing traditional producers to articulate why they do things the way they do, to defend their methods with arguments, not just with tradition.

Y eso, en realidad, es bueno para la industria.

And that, actually, is good for the industry.

I want to spend some time on two Spanish regions I think are genuinely underknown outside of Spain, starting with Priorat, because I remember having a wine from there years ago and being genuinely caught off guard.

El Priorat es especial por una razón muy concreta: el suelo.

Priorat is special for one very specific reason: the soil.

Hay un tipo de pizarra local que se llama 'llicorella', de color negro y rojizo, que drena perfectamente el agua y obliga a las vides a profundizar mucho en busca de nutrientes.

There's a type of local slate called 'llicorella', black and reddish in color, that drains water perfectly and forces the vines to go very deep in search of nutrients.

El resultado son uvas de concentración extrema, con muy poca producción por hectárea.

The result is grapes of extreme concentration, with very little production per hectare.

Los vinos son potentes, minerales, casi primitivos en el mejor sentido.

The wines are powerful, mineral, almost primitive in the best sense.

Y en los años noventa, un grupo de productores casi desde la nada lo convirtieron en uno de los vinos más cotizados del mundo.

And in the nineties, a group of producers almost from nothing turned it into one of the most valued wines in the world.

That's a remarkable story for a region that had basically been abandoned.

And the other one I wanted to get to is Galicia, because it seems to me that Albariño has become one of those wines that food people now treat with real reverence.

Galicia es completamente diferente al resto de España vinícola.

Galicia is completely different from the rest of wine Spain.

Es verde, húmeda, atlántica.

It's green, humid, Atlantic.

Las Rías Baixas producen Albariño, que es un vino blanco con una acidez brillante, aromas de melocotón y flores, muy fresco.

The Rías Baixas produce Albariño, which is a white wine with brilliant acidity, aromas of peach and flowers, very fresh.

Es perfecto con mariscos, con el pulpo a la gallega, con el pescado del Atlántico.

It's perfect with seafood, with octopus Galician style, with Atlantic fish.

Representa una identidad cultural fortísima porque Galicia tiene una identidad propia, una lengua propia, y sus vinos reflejan ese carácter diferenciado.

It represents a very strong cultural identity because Galicia has its own identity, its own language, and its wines reflect that differentiated character.

And then there's sherry, which I have to say feels to me like the most underappreciated wine in the world.

Not just in Spain.

Everywhere.

It's genuinely strange how little attention it gets given what it is.

Fletcher, en esto estamos de acuerdo y me alegra que lo digas.

Fletcher, on this we agree and I'm glad you say it.

El jerez es quizás el vino más complejo que produce España, con un sistema de elaboración único en el mundo llamado 'solera', donde mezclas vinos de diferentes años para crear un producto de consistencia absoluta.

Sherry is perhaps the most complex wine Spain produces, with a unique winemaking system called 'solera', where you blend wines from different years to create a product of absolute consistency.

Tienes desde el manzanilla, que es casi salino, hasta el pedro ximénez, que es denso como la miel.

You have everything from manzanilla, which is almost saline, to pedro ximénez, which is as thick as honey.

Y sin embargo, fuera de Andalucía y de ciertos círculos de sumilleres, la gente lo ignora.

And yet, outside Andalusia and certain sommelier circles, people ignore it.

Es una injusticia gastronómica.

It's a gastronomic injustice.

Part of it is that fino sherry got associated with your grandmother's drinks cabinet in Britain and the image just stuck.

Which is exactly the kind of cultural stereotype that buries great things.

Totalmente.

Totally.

Y es curioso porque en el siglo diecinueve el jerez era el vino más exportado del mundo.

And it's curious because in the nineteenth century sherry was the most exported wine in the world.

Los ingleses lo llamaban 'sherry', una versión anglificada de Jerez de la Frontera, y lo bebían en grandes cantidades.

The English called it 'sherry', an anglicized version of Jerez de la Frontera, and they drank it in large quantities.

Los grandes maestros de bodega en Jerez todavía hablan de familias inglesas que llevan generaciones comprando sus vinos.

The great cellar masters in Jerez still talk about English families who have been buying their wines for generations.

Esa relación histórica es fascinante, aunque el mercado masivo inglés luego lo abandonó.

That historical relationship is fascinating, even though the English mass market later abandoned it.

You used a phrase a few minutes ago that I keep coming back to.

You said the vines in Priorat 'llevan siglos expresando ese suelo'.

And I've noticed you use 'llevar' that way throughout, to mean something has been going on for a long time.

That's not how we'd say it in English and I want to make sure I understand it.

Buena observación.

Good observation.

En español, 'llevar' más un gerundio expresa duración de una acción que continúa hasta ahora.

In Spanish, 'llevar' plus a gerund expresses the duration of an action that continues up to now.

'Llevo tres horas esperando' significa 'he estado esperando durante tres horas y todavía espero'.

'Llevo tres horas esperando' means 'I've been waiting for three hours and I'm still waiting'.

'España lleva siglos produciendo vino' significa que empezó hace siglos y continúa hoy.

'España lleva siglos produciendo vino' means it started centuries ago and continues today.

Es una estructura muy natural y muy usada.

It's a very natural and very widely used structure.

So it's like the present perfect continuous in English, 'I've been waiting', but you've collapsed it into a single verb.

'Llevo esperando' carries the duration right inside it.

Exacto.

Exactly.

Y hay un detalle importante: siempre va acompañado de una expresión de tiempo.

And there's an important detail: it always goes with a time expression.

'Llevo dos años aprendiendo español', 'llevamos horas hablando de vino'.

'Llevo dos años aprendiendo español', 'llevamos horas hablando de vino'.

Sin esa referencia temporal, la frase queda incompleta.

Without that time reference, the sentence is incomplete.

Es una de esas estructuras que, cuando la dominas, suenas inmediatamente más natural en español.

It's one of those structures that, when you master it, you immediately sound more natural in Spanish.

'Llevo veinte años bebiendo vino español sin entender lo que bebo.' That's my sentence.

Perfecta.

Perfect.

La gramática es correcta.

The grammar is correct.

La autocrítica también.

The self-criticism also.

Ahora solo falta que lo pronuncies bien cuando estés en una bodega en Jerez, y no le digas al sumiller que estás muy embarazado de no haber visitado antes.

Now you just need to pronounce it properly when you're in a winery in Jerez, and not tell the sommelier you're very pregnant for not having visited sooner.