Fletcher breaks down this story in English. Octavio reacts and expands in Spanish. Follow along with the live transcript, tap any word for its translation. Intermediate level — perfect for intermediate learners expanding their range.
So I want to start with something that genuinely surprised me when I moved back into the Spanish orbit, through family, through spending more time there.
People are talking about therapy.
Openly.
At dinner tables.
And I don't remember that being the case fifteen years ago.
Bueno, tienes razón, Fletcher.
Well, you're right, Fletcher.
Algo ha cambiado.
Something has changed.
Cuando yo era joven, nadie hablaba de ir al psicólogo.
When I was young, nobody talked about going to a psychologist.
Era casi una vergüenza.
It was almost shameful.
Significaba que eras débil, o que estabas loco.
It meant you were weak, or that you were crazy.
Eso era lo que pensaba la gente.
That's what people thought.
And that's exactly what I want to dig into, because that attitude didn't come from nowhere.
There's a whole cultural and historical architecture behind it.
But first, set the scene for me.
What does the conversation look like in Spain right now?
Mira, ahora los jóvenes hablan mucho de la ansiedad, del estrés, del agotamiento.
Look, now young people talk a lot about anxiety, stress, exhaustion.
En las redes sociales, en los periódicos, en la televisión.
On social media, in newspapers, on television.
Hay famosos que hablan de su depresión.
There are celebrities who talk about their depression.
Esto antes no pasaba.
This didn't happen before.
Right, and the celebrity piece is interesting globally, not just in Spain.
You had Simone Biles stepping back from the Olympics, Naomi Osaka talking about her mental health publicly.
But in Spain specifically, who are the figures that moved the needle?
A ver, hay deportistas, hay actores.
Well, there are athletes, there are actors.
Pero creo que el momento más importante fue la pandemia.
But I think the most important moment was the pandemic.
El COVID cambió todo.
COVID changed everything.
La gente estaba sola en casa, con miedo, sin trabajo muchas veces.
People were alone at home, scared, often without work.
Y empezó a hablar de cómo se sentía.
And they started talking about how they felt.
The pandemic as a kind of collective permission slip.
I've heard that framing before and I think there's something to it.
The suffering was so visible, so universal, that it became impossible to pretend everyone was fine.
Exactamente.
Exactly.
Y en España el confinamiento fue muy duro.
And in Spain the lockdown was very hard.
Muy estricto.
Very strict.
La gente no podía salir de casa durante semanas.
People couldn't leave their homes for weeks.
Eso fue un shock psicológico enorme, especialmente para las personas que vivían solas.
That was an enormous psychological shock, especially for people who lived alone.
Spain had one of the strictest lockdowns in Europe.
I remember covering some of the initial reporting on that.
Kids couldn't go outside for weeks.
Adults either.
So you have this pressure-cooker situation, and then people come out of it and they're not okay, and suddenly there's no hiding that.
Sí, y los números son muy serios.
Yes, and the numbers are very serious.
Después del COVID, los casos de ansiedad y depresión aumentaron mucho en España.
After COVID, cases of anxiety and depression increased a lot in Spain.
Especialmente entre los jóvenes.
Especially among young people.
Los estudios dicen que uno de cada cuatro jóvenes tiene problemas de salud mental.
Studies say that one in four young people has mental health problems.
One in four.
That's staggering.
And look, those numbers are not unique to Spain, we're seeing similar figures across Europe and the US.
But here's what gets me: Spain has a particular cultural history with this subject that makes the silence even more loaded.
Let's go back a bit.
Bueno, sí.
Well, yes.
Durante el franquismo, hablar de los problemas personales era casi imposible.
During Francoism, talking about personal problems was almost impossible.
La cultura oficial decía que España era fuerte, que los españoles eran fuertes.
The official culture said that Spain was strong, that Spaniards were strong.
El sufrimiento era algo privado.
Suffering was something private.
Algo que no se mostraba.
Something you didn't show.
And the Church reinforced that, right?
There's a theological tradition of suffering as redemptive, as something you endure rather than treat.
You don't go to a therapist, you go to confession.
Exacto.
Exactly.
La Iglesia tenía mucho poder.
The Church had a lot of power.
Y también la idea del honor, de la familia.
And also the idea of honor, of family.
Los problemas de la familia se quedaban en la familia.
Family problems stayed in the family.
No hablas con un extraño de tus emociones.
You don't talk to a stranger about your emotions.
Eso no se hacía.
That just wasn't done.
I spent some time in Argentina, which has a very different relationship with therapy.
Buenos Aires has more psychoanalysts per capita than anywhere on earth.
And people there talk about their therapist the way they talk about their dentist, it's just maintenance.
Spain is not that.
No, no, España es muy diferente.
No, no, Spain is very different.
Argentina tiene una cultura muy distinta con el psicoanálisis, con Freud.
Argentina has a very distinct culture around psychoanalysis, around Freud.
En España esa tradición no existía.
In Spain that tradition didn't exist.
Y todavía hay mucha diferencia entre las ciudades y los pueblos pequeños.
And there are still big differences between cities and small towns.
That urban-rural gap feels important.
Madrid, Barcelona, Seville, these are cosmopolitan cities.
But Spain is also Extremadura and rural Castile and villages where the old attitudes survive.
Are we talking about a generational shift, a geographic shift, or both?
Las dos cosas.
Both things.
Los jóvenes en las ciudades hablan mucho más de salud mental.
Young people in cities talk much more about mental health.
Pero en los pueblos, con las personas mayores, todavía hay mucho estigma.
But in the villages, among older people, there is still a lot of stigma.
Mi padre, por ejemplo, nunca habló de sus emociones.
My father, for example, never talked about his emotions.
Nunca.
Never.
Era de otra generación.
He was from a different generation.
No, you're absolutely right about that generational line.
My daughter's father-in-law is about your father's age and he is the same.
Strong, silent, proud.
A great man, genuinely.
But the idea of sitting with a psychologist and talking about his feelings?
I think he'd rather swim to Mallorca.
[laughs] Sí, exactamente.
[laughs] Yes, exactly.
Y eso no es solo un problema español.
And that's not just a Spanish problem.
Es un problema de los hombres de esa generación en muchos países.
It's a problem with men of that generation in many countries.
Pero en España el machismo también tenía mucha fuerza.
But in Spain machismo was also very strong.
Los hombres no lloraban.
Men didn't cry.
No tenían miedo.
They weren't afraid.
Eso era la norma.
That was the norm.
Right, so you have this confluence: Catholicism, machismo, Francoism, family honor.
All of them pointing in the same direction, which is: keep quiet, be strong, get on with it.
And then the question becomes, what cracked that open?
Was it just COVID, or were there earlier fissures?
La verdad es que el cambio empezó antes.
The truth is that the change started before.
La crisis económica de 2008 fue muy importante.
The economic crisis of 2008 was very important.
España perdió millones de empleos.
Spain lost millions of jobs.
Los jóvenes no podían encontrar trabajo.
Young people couldn't find work.
Muchos tuvieron que salir del país.
Many had to leave the country.
Eso creó mucho sufrimiento y mucha frustración.
That created a lot of suffering and a lot of frustration.
The lost generation, they called them.
The young Spaniards who left for Berlin, for London, for Lisbon.
And I think there's something in that experience too, right?
You leave Spain, you live in northern Europe, you encounter a culture where therapy is completely normalized, and you come back different.
Sí, eso es muy real.
Yes, that is very real.
Muchos amigos míos vivieron en Londres o en Berlín y cuando volvieron, hablaban de la terapia con mucha normalidad.
Many of my friends lived in London or Berlin and when they came back, they talked about therapy very normally.
Llevaron esa idea de vuelta a España.
They brought that idea back to Spain.
La cultura viajó con las personas.
The culture traveled with the people.
I mean, that's a genuinely fascinating mechanism of cultural change.
You export your young people because of economic necessity, they absorb different norms, and when they return they're vectors of a different way of thinking.
The crisis inadvertently opened a door.
Exacto.
Exactly.
Y también las redes sociales.
And also social media.
Los jóvenes españoles veían en Instagram o en Twitter que personas en otros países hablaban de la depresión, de la ansiedad, con normalidad.
Young Spanish people saw on Instagram or Twitter that people in other countries talked about depression, about anxiety, normally.
Eso también cambió la conversación aquí.
That also changed the conversation here.
So you have the economic crisis, the diaspora, social media, and then COVID as the final catalyst.
And the government eventually responded.
The Spanish government passed a Mental Health Strategy in 2022, right?
Tell me about that, because it's one thing for the culture to shift and another for the state to actually do something.
Sí, el gobierno aprobó una estrategia de salud mental.
Yes, the government approved a mental health strategy.
Pero el problema real es el sistema público.
But the real problem is the public system.
En España hay muy pocos psicólogos y psiquiatras en el sistema público.
In Spain there are very few psychologists and psychiatrists in the public system.
Hay que esperar muchos meses para una cita.
You have to wait many months for an appointment.
Eso es un problema muy serio.
That is a very serious problem.
The extraordinary thing is that gap, the distance between the cultural conversation and the actual infrastructure.
Spain has something like six psychiatrists per hundred thousand people, well below the European average.
So you have a society that is finally willing to ask for help, and the system isn't equipped to answer.
Exactamente.
Exactly.
Y los que tienen dinero pueden ir a un psicólogo privado.
And those who have money can go to a private psychologist.
Pero para muchas familias, eso es imposible.
But for many families, that is impossible.
Una sesión de terapia privada cuesta entre 60 y 100 euros.
A private therapy session costs between 60 and 100 euros.
Para una familia normal, eso es mucho dinero.
For a normal family, that is a lot of money.
So mental health care is becoming another axis of inequality.
Wealthy urban Spaniards can access private therapy.
Everyone else joins a waiting list that might be six months long.
And meanwhile the cultural conversation continues, which almost makes it worse: you're aware you need help and you can't get it.
La verdad es que sí.
The truth is, yes.
Y hay otro problema.
And there's another problem.
Muchos médicos de cabecera no tienen la formación necesaria para hablar de salud mental.
Many general practitioners don't have the necessary training to talk about mental health.
Cuando un paciente llegaba con depresión, antes el médico decía: descansa, toma estas pastillas.
When a patient arrived with depression, before the doctor would say: rest, take these pills.
Y ya.
And that was it.
The prescription pad as a substitute for actual care.
That's not unique to Spain, I have to say.
American primary care has the same problem.
But look, let's push on something here, because I've been reading some of the pushback in Spain, and there are critics who say the mental health conversation has gone too far.
That it's become a kind of victimhood culture.
What do you make of that argument?
Es que hay personas que piensan eso, sí.
There are people who think that, yes.
Dicen que los jóvenes de hoy son demasiado frágiles, que antes la gente tenía problemas más graves y no se quejaba.
They say that young people today are too fragile, that in the past people had worse problems and didn't complain.
Pero yo creo que eso no es justo.
But I think that is not fair.
Reconocer un problema no es debilidad.
Recognizing a problem is not weakness.
And there's a logical problem with that argument too.
Just because previous generations suffered in silence doesn't mean they were fine.
It means they suffered in silence.
The silence wasn't health.
It was just silence.
Muy bien dicho.
Very well said.
Y hay estudios que dicen que en España el número de suicidios es un problema serio.
And there are studies that say that in Spain the number of suicides is a serious problem.
Más personas mueren por suicidio que en accidentes de tráfico cada año.
More people die by suicide than in traffic accidents every year.
Eso es una realidad muy dura que no podemos ignorar.
That is a very hard reality that we cannot ignore.
That statistic is striking and I think it's the kind of number that cuts through the cultural debate pretty quickly.
More deaths from suicide than from road accidents.
And Spain has put enormous resources into road safety over the decades.
The infrastructure question suddenly looks very concrete.
Sí.
Yes.
Y también es importante hablar de los hombres.
And it is also important to talk about men.
Los hombres en España todavía piden ayuda mucho menos que las mujeres.
Men in Spain still ask for help much less than women.
El suicidio es más frecuente entre los hombres.
Suicide is more frequent among men.
Eso muestra que el problema del estigma es más fuerte en los hombres.
That shows that the stigma problem is stronger among men.
So the cultural shift is happening faster for women and younger people, and men, particularly older men, are being left behind by it.
Which is a kind of painful irony: the culture that told men to be strong and not ask for help is also the culture that's killing some of them.
Sí.
Yes.
Y eso es lo que me parece más urgente.
And that is what I find most urgent.
No solo cambiar la conversación, sino llegar a esas personas que todavía no hablan.
Not just changing the conversation, but reaching those people who still don't talk.
Los hombres mayores, las personas en los pueblos, las personas con menos educación.
Older men, people in villages, people with less education.
El cambio cultural no llega a todos igual.
Cultural change doesn't reach everyone equally.
Here's the thing, and this is something I genuinely don't know the answer to: can a government strategy actually change that?
Or does this kind of deep cultural change only happen from the bottom up, through families, through communities, through the slow accumulation of personal stories?
Creo que necesitas las dos cosas.
I think you need both things.
El gobierno puede poner más psicólogos en el sistema público, puede hacer campañas de información.
The government can put more psychologists in the public system, it can run information campaigns.
Pero el cambio real viene de las personas.
But the real change comes from people.
Cuando alguien habla de su depresión con su familia, eso cambia más que un anuncio en la televisión.
When someone talks about their depression with their family, that changes more than an advertisement on television.
And that brings us back to where we started, in a way.
The dinner table conversation.
The family dinner where someone actually says: I'm not okay, I've been seeing someone, I've been struggling.
That moment, multiplied across millions of families, is probably more powerful than any strategy document.
Totalmente.
Totally.
Y yo veo ese cambio ya en España.
And I already see that change in Spain.
No en todas partes, no con todas las personas.
Not everywhere, not with every person.
Pero está pasando.
But it is happening.
Los jóvenes hablan con sus padres de cosas que antes eran imposibles de decir.
Young people talk to their parents about things that before were impossible to say.
Eso es un progreso real, aunque lento.
That is real progress, even if it is slow.
Slow is fine.
Slow is how culture actually changes.
I've watched a lot of countries try to rush it and it doesn't work.
So, final thought from me: Spain is in this interesting middle moment.
The conversation has opened up, the stigma is cracking, but the infrastructure hasn't caught up and the change isn't evenly distributed.
That tension is going to define the next decade.
Sí, es un buen resumen.
Yes, that is a good summary.
España habla ahora de lo que antes callaba.
Spain now talks about what it used to keep quiet.
Y eso es importante.
And that is important.
Pero hablar no es suficiente.
But talking is not enough.
Necesitamos también un sistema que pueda ayudar a las personas cuando piden ayuda.
We also need a system that can help people when they ask for help.
Las palabras son el principio, no el final.
Words are the beginning, not the end.